Drunken Philosophy's Moment of Clarity

- Welcome to another edition of The Drunken Philosophers.

Thank you for being our attentive listeners.

This is Scott and my notable compatriot Ben is here.

- Hi.

- We are thinking of ourselves as fortunate

that we've been reminiscing on our many ways

that life is good, but we're not quite sure

how to qualify that.

We think that it probably has many meanings

and in fact sometimes the word good can be construed

as smug or as elitist and we'd like to know

or like to try to just explore

what it is that makes a good life.

So Ben, what do you, what's your first momentary knee jerk?

- Well, can I just provide some background

in what got me thinking about this?

- You know, when you ask permission, I have four.

- Oh, okay.

- Nevermind.

- Sorry, no, I just like to, I was just,

I kind of like to base these conversations a lot

on things that I've come across

at the Drunken Philosophy meetings, right?

And at the last one I hosted about a week and a half ago,

I, that was what somebody wrote,

somebody brought a whole book about it

to share with the group actually about what makes a good life.

- Okay.

- And so we started talking about that.

It was a very good conversation.

- Was this book a prescription or just musings

on what makes a good life?

- You know, I couldn't really say

'cause although I added it to my wishlist on Amazon,

I mean, I haven't read it, it's really based around,

it's subtitle is "The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy."

So it's one of those stoic books.

- Okay.

- And I looked at the table of contents a bit.

It just, from looking at that,

I would say it's got, it's more or less prescriptive, yeah.

But I think, I'm sure it leaves a lot open to the individual.

But I don't know, I didn't really read the book.

We just started talking about any of it.

We started to, well, I hope to at some point.

It looks like a good book.

But it was a conversation more of what makes a good life.

- Yeah.

- That was fun and interesting.

And I think like a very worthwhile topic in general.

We didn't get too far.

Mostly what we basically got to the point of agreeing

that what does not make a good life is happiness.

- No.

- In the more superficial sense, at least.

- Okay.

- Which I, yeah, I don't know.

What do you think?

- Well, I guess the irony of that is notable

in that that would be most people's initial qualification

for a good life, happiness.

- Hmm.

- Yeah.

- The, try to imagine what the

disqualification was for happiness

because it does seem like that's a prerequisite.

If you're living in,

and maybe it's simply a,

an offshoot or an obvious remnant

of all the good things that happen in your life

that you're happy.

But I would wager that unhappy people

aren't living a good life.

- Yeah, I mean, maybe it's a necessary

but not sufficient condition kind of thing.

But I mean, happiness is also one of those words

that it's a nebulous word.

People use it in different senses, right?

- Sure, sure.

- Somebody, one person could mean happiness

in the sense of being very, very fulfilled

and having a sense of meaning and purpose

and things like that.

I think that could definitely be a definition of a good life.

Another person uses happiness as a superficial thing, right?

Where it just means like comfort

or whatever like feel good kind of feelings

without any like depth or purpose behind it.

I think that's the sense where we were talking about

that night was more,

people definitely seem to often be pursuing those things

in that sense of just some kind of comfort, feel good

and want the feel good feelings,

but at the cost possibly of a deeper meaning

or purpose or pursuit in their life, right?

- Right.

Yeah, and I think that there's probably

a spectrum of people in that camp.

Some people, they're not capable of deeper fulfillment,

not really able to find that solid rock of a good life.

And then there are those who are rabidly in pursuit

of just the catharsis of being happy.

So, and I do believe some of those people

are absolutely able to put together a philosophical idea.

We just had a little interruption,

so we're gonna have to recollect our thoughts.

My rambling thought was that I believe

there are certainly people who can put together

a philosophical idea, who choose to just be happy.

And you know what?

I'm really not gonna tell them they shouldn't be.

- I think that's fair actually, right?

I mean, I guess what makes a good life

depend on the person, right?

- Yes.

- Depends on the person.

- That kind of reminds me of when I get challenged

because, well, because I'm an atheist

and I've gotten into a lot of arguments about this

with people from my very religious past,

get challenged about the question,

well, how do you find purpose?

How do you find meaning in your life?

Or what is the meaning of life

is another way that it gets asked.

And I think a completely legitimate answer to that is,

well, that's up to the person.

That's up to the individual, right?

And so I think very similar to what is a good life,

that kind of is up to the person too.

And so if it ends up being happiness,

then that's great, I suppose.

- Well, I think that, of course,

what makes a good life,

living it up to the person is

not a really fulfilling answer.

Because honestly, there needs to be some baseline.

I think that there is a requirement for a good life

that happiness then is the fortunate eventual result.

But I think we need to have

baseline elements that allow us to be happy,

allow us to have a good life.

So there's also, as I think about it,

the difference between a good life for me

and a good life for that guy.

When I start to talk about a good life for someone else,

I might be talking about my expectations of that person

rather than what he or she wants, right?

So I'm then projecting what a good life should be

for that person.

No, I believe that there are people who live extreme lives

and those people have, when I say extreme,

of course it's relative to me,

they have criteria for happiness and fulfillment

in a good life that is perverse.

And I'm thinking of people who are

living a violent life or a life of degrift

where they are looking simply for their next victim

or a person who's truly a psychopath

and is really looking for his next victim.

Those things I don't accept as acceptable,

even though relatively I think a person

is living his personal good life

irrespective of my baseline.

- Sure, so where's the line?

Is it when somebody's behaviors harm others?

- I think that while a person might say

I'm living a good life and yet I'm a hit man

for the mafia and I'm waiting for my next gig,

I think we should reserve the right to say no, you're not.

- Right, now what is the reason for that?

The first thing that comes to my mind

is well, because he's hurting,

like he's part of a system that's very harmful.

All right, to society, to people in general, right?

Is that it?

- I guess, I mean he's violating a basic principle

that I hold and that is that we don't

derive pleasure from other people's pain.

- Yeah, right, which makes me then wonder

so what about somebody who's living a life

that as far as we can tell,

we have every reason to think is that actually

their choices are hurting them as an individual,

like a drug addict or something like that

or a bum or a super lazy person, whatever it is,

but they're happy, they say that this is their best life.

- Right, well I mean as far as what makes a good life,

they got it nailed, right?

But as far as what we externally, observationally,

respect and want to encourage,

that would probably not qualify, right?

So there is cultural pressure that should play a part,

and I'm gonna say prescriptively ought to play a part

in a person's choices.

I think if you don't care what other people think,

you are a sociopath and your behavior

is going to harm others and give you a charge.

You're going to be pleased with the discomfort

you've given to other people.

I don't believe that I'm going to say

that your good life is a good life.

- Yeah, your good life versus a good life,

interesting way to put it.

- Yes, they are living an isolated bubble life

that should be judged by the harm

or the negativity that they're creating.

- Yeah, yeah, sure.

I mean they're creating negativity that's not helpful.

- Right, so I think maybe they're in a holistic sense.

If your good life is causing others

to have a diminished life,

perhaps that is an opportunity for growth.

- That's a great way to put it.

- You could grow a little.

- An opportunity for growth, yeah, sure.

- And not harm others with your own self-indulgence.

Because, yeah.

And I believe that there ought to be

a cultural imperative to build our society

as a more holistic collective that does uplift its members.

If we are allowing people to live isolated

lives of indulgence and self-interest,

we don't have a community like that.

I think of it as the different,

sort of in the animal kingdom sense

that there are lone wolves who just run alone

and they happen upon wolf packs.

Maybe they are able to sucker one of the females

into a tryst and then they move on, right?

That's not a society, I guess.

He's not building a society by being a lone wolf.

He's simply conducting his own interest.

And we need to accept that lone wolves exist

and that they sure are worthy of being alone.

They have existence.

But do we want to help them become a member of the pack?

I think we do.

You know, I think that if they're purely going to be separate

and never really provide their own talents

or inspiration to the community,

that's a squander of resources and talent

others could benefit from.

To me, that's one of my moral foundational elements.

- Yeah, now I'm trying to decide which,

'cause I can see like a fork in the road

of which direction to take the conversation.

- Go for it, 'cause I really, I could either way.

- Um, well, for one thing,

I'm glad that you said the word indulgence

'cause I feel like maybe that's a more fitting word

for what I was thinking of when I said happiness.

Happiness is something that could mean,

it's used in a lot of different ways.

Indulgence might be more of a word

that I'm thinking of, a concept that I'm thinking of

is like a life of indulgence.

It seems to me what a lot of people

pursue a lot of the time.

I mean, including myself, right?

It's not necessarily, I don't think it's necessarily

a bad thing, but if that's all you're going for,

you're making other compromises, important compromises

for the sake of that, then maybe

that's not gonna lead anywhere that great in the end.

- And I mean, do you consider indulgence to be

watching basketball all day Saturday?

- Oh yeah, yeah. - Yeah, right.

I don't think of indulgence as a bad thing.

I think of it as a bad thing on its own

to the exclusion of or at the cost of other things.

- Yeah, yeah. - You know?

I indulge, I'm indulging right now in beer.

And so it's like, yeah, yeah.

I'm not anesthetic by any means,

but to lose perspective

in terms of what matters maybe more than that.

I think it's important, yeah.

- Yeah, when I think of,

when I think of the pressures to conform,

I am remembering my time in high school

and having heard, certainly kept my ear to the track

and I've tried to understand the pressures

that kids are still experiencing.

There's an awful lot of, you know,

the bullying of the weaker,

of those that are considered to be not part of the pack.

And, you know, I don't want to encourage that, of course.

I want, it needs to be a positive encouragement.

And I, by even deeper, more direct example,

the incel groups that have risen as a response

to the bullying that they've received

does seem to be an inappropriate attempt

to draw people, draw the lone wolf.

Well, okay, draw them into the open

and shoot them in the head, right?

There is no interest in bringing the incel population,

the people who consider themselves involuntarily celibate

to be part of the celibate, the incelibate group, right?

Not that I am trying to encourage women to do that.

No, I mean, I'm encouraging men to be people

that women want to consort with.

We need our people to want to be a part of our community

and be respectable elements of that community.

And I feel like they're not living a happy life.

I think that's probably the definition of not a good life,

of when you're constantly feeling like you're not acceptable

and you're not a viable member of polite society.

So honestly, my heart goes out to kids,

mostly guys who feel like they can't compete.

And to that, I'm gonna say, put on your big boy pants,

figure the shit out, understand what people want

and don't get angry

'cause they don't want an angry little asshole, right?

They want a guy that's reasonable, nice.

You ain't gotta be pretty, but you do have to be nice

and you do have to be smart.

Or if you're not smart, just don't be a dick, right?

- Sure, yeah, right.

- But I mean, I don't know if that really is my prescription

for your happiness or your good life.

I just feel like there's so many subcultures in America

that cater to people who feel like they don't have

the good life.

- Yeah.

Well, I guess all I can really say

is what makes a good life for me.

And, you know, clear, obviously,

probably I've thought about that before.

And I think I kind of know what drives me.

And I hesitate to use that as a, you know,

road book for other people.

All I can say is what drives,

but I do think I know what drives me.

- Always at the starting point, shit.

- Yeah, which is, I know what gets me going.

I know what motivates me.

And I've called it, I put a name on it for myself.

And I've called it the chase that motivates me.

Something to pursue, something to work towards a goal,

some kind of a passion.

- A reason to wake up.

- Yeah, something to fight for.

- Yeah, but even better.

- Yeah, and like you said,

other people may be pursuing other things.

And all I can say is like this pursuit of, quote,

any happiness or indulgence or comforts or even community,

which I think is a little goes a little bit deeper.

Those aren't that interesting to me.

To me, I want something to fight for

and something to keep on challenging me and to push me.

- And I guess because of who I am or my experiences

or whatever, I can only really imagine

that that's very convincing to other people.

But maybe I'm wrong.

- Well, I mean, I feel like there's,

I think you get a lot of points for saying that.

But I don't think that you get a lot of converts

by saying that.

There is so few people, I think,

that get fulfilled by building stuff.

And I think when you say the chase,

I mean, you're trying to assemble something

from raw materials, the longer that happens, right?

- Sure, yeah.

- And sometimes it's physical,

sometimes it's philosophical.

But I don't know that the majority of people

even see themselves as gaining fulfillment by creating.

That element of creation, to me,

is what drives our society forward.

However, in any society,

there are people who are support staff.

There are people who just are happily,

blissfully part of the backdrop

and are not really trying to drive forward

any of the progress that we're making.

And I respect that completely, right?

We need our support people.

They're essential, otherwise it wouldn't function.

But you're in a positive place

where you, in fact, can effect change.

I don't think that the people who are not making any effort

are going to effect any amount of change.

And from the change that you're looking for,

it's going to be at least an improvement

to a few people's lives.

And that's what drives me as well.

I hadn't thought of it from the perspective

how you said it.

But I am,

unable to do things simply because they're fun.

Simply because it gives me a charge.

Well, once in a while, sure.

But most of the things that I do

are because I want to be a better person.

And by being a better person,

I am going to be in a better position

to do bigger things.

Gain respect from people, or whatever that is.

And like exercise.

I don't exercise just because it makes me feel good,

because goddamn it, it doesn't feel good.

It hurts like hell, right?

But I do that because I want to be able to

build things that require strength.

I want to be able to present myself

in a way that people say,

huh, you know, you did it okay for your time on this earth.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You time on this earth.

Yeah, I like that.

Because I'm always thinking about the fact

that I have such a limited amount of time.

Oh my God, so long.

So little time.

And I am kind of obsessed, I think,

with this goal that I want to get to the end of my life,

being able to look back and be very proud.

Right.

And say, you know, whatever it was, you know, damn right.

Damn straight.

I did do that, yeah, exactly.

And so that's the thing.

It's this sense of urgency constantly.

Right.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've been obsessed with this concept of time

and its passing.

Yeah.

Since I could, you know, early teens.

Yeah.

Right, or maybe even before.

And the fear that I have of letting time pass unnoticed.

Yeah.

I hate.

I don't like, I don't like sleeping, you know.

I want to be awake.

I want to be doing shit, right?

Right, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

And I'm building things.

Now, most of the things that I build

are not nearly as beneficial as the ones you build, Ben.

Most of the things I build are for me

and very few people that I immediately affect.

But you, on the other hand,

you build things for hundreds of people.

Yeah.

And each of them are affected positively.

Yeah, right, yeah.

That was a big part of my decision to get into trades

was this desire to do something

that mattered in other people's lives.

Yeah, directly.

Directly, yeah, right.

So, I think I had a train of thought

that I was building up to,

but I, yeah, I'll say it is good enough for now.

Maybe it'll come back.

Okay.

But anyways, but I think you make a good point

that not everybody's the same.

And there's, like you say, support staff.

Other people maybe have a different,

you know, if you're talking about a society,

I'll say like a different role or different interests.

And maybe they're perfectly happy just being comfortable.

And maybe I should give people more credit for that.

Right.

That's fine.

Yeah, I mean, as a, you know,

each individual, I'm fond of saying,

wakes up every morning, decides what to do.

Are they going to have breakfast?

What clothes are they gonna wear?

When are they gonna leave for the day?

What are they gonna do between waking and leaving?

Where are they going?

These are all choices that a person makes.

Some of them are encouraged, like,

oh, we encourage you to arrive by eight o'clock

in order to get paid, things like that.

But others are discretionary.

And you have a whole

hassle of choices to make during your day,

every day, all the time.

And many of those are

not, well, not truly part of the

bulk of what would constitute a good life.

Many of them are merely

just maintenance activities.

Mm-hmm.

But if we have the right attitude,

and if we realize that, you know,

our ability to do things without fear of

being attacked, physically attacked,

being able to acquire food

without having to kill something,

being able to watch television.

What an amazing thing that LCD screen is.

And what an amazing thing is that we could,

you could decide, if you had $150,

you could decide to go to Florida.

What?

Florida?

That's a people of life time to get there.

You have no idea how far that is.

I couldn't walk there in a year.

But no, I could go there in two hours.

Yeah. Okay.

What an amazing, those are the appreciation

of the foundational brilliance

of today's society.

And I don't think I'm speaking as an elitist here.

I mean, honestly, I don't take a lot of plane rides.

It's not a lifestyle of mine.

But, and I don't think it's a requirement

for a good life by any means, right?

You can live a good life and never get on a plane.

But we have to appreciate the smaller things,

the finer things and maybe it's not a plane ride.

Maybe it's merely the fact that you don't get shot

walking out your door.

I think maybe that's the baseline, right?

We don't have, we're not living in the jungle

where a boa constrictor can land on our head

and squeeze the life out of us in 15 seconds, okay?

We're not there.

There's so many things that make it a good life.

And I feel like the appreciation for the little things

is probably the key.

- Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, perspective, whatever it is I think

that people choose to do with their lives

and make a good life, I think,

like just maintain perspective.

I think that that's worth having, whatever decision you make.

Like you say, perspective about where you are in history

and in society and how much,

like we're saying, how far we've come

and what your privileges actually are

and where that comes from,

why you're in the privileged position that you're in now.

- Right.

- Perspective about the time that you have on this earth

and the fact that you really don't know how much time

you have, you know the upper limit,

but you don't know the lower limit.

- No, I know.

I mean, it could be five minutes.

- Right, yeah.

And so, I mean, whatever it is that you decide,

like you need to make sure that you're deciding it

like realistically and within the context

of what's the reality that you live in,

is a very broad, flowery maybe way of putting it, but.

- Right.

- But yeah, I mean, and we are,

like what you were alluding to,

we're at a ridiculously amazing time right now.

- Sure are.

- We all, even those of us who live in poverty

are living like kings, historically.

- Yes.

- More than kings, historically.

It's like insane.

And I think it's worth keeping that in our minds,

remembering that, yeah.

- Yeah, we don't see the horrors that we've seen in the past.

- Right.

- Right.

And so our lower limit of unhappiness is pretty high.

- Right.

- Yeah.

- Right.

- I, you know, have heard a rumor or stories

of people in like Bangladesh going through the streets

having no legs, going through the streets on a little cart

with some meals, pushing themselves by their knuckles,

asking for money.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- I mean, and those people, like,

there's people like that here in this country too, but.

- Yeah, I mean, those are people that are being helped though.

We aren't forcing them people, those people onto the street.

- Yeah.

- And to beg for money, in truth.

- Right, maybe a better support system here.

- I think that the people who are begging for money

are just begging for extra money in America.

- Yeah, and you know what, honestly, I've been fortunate

enough not to be in a situation where I had to figure that out,

where I had to know what resources are available.

- Mm-hmm.

- But I believe that a lot of people have told me

and it makes sense to me that there's enough of a support system

in this country that if you're really down on your luck,

truly, legitimately, there's resources out there, so.

- Right, there are people who don't qualify for those resources,

but you know what, we need to have standards.

So if they don't meet the standards for assistance,

I think that they're living a good life in a way that is...

- Yeah. - ...already supported.

- So they wouldn't qualify because they're not that bad off yet.

- Because they don't meet the criteria, whatever that is.

- Okay. - I couldn't tell you what it is.

- Right. You know, I think about this a lot.

I think about this one example.

This is one of, I'm sure, a lot of examples that even I have,

let alone all other people.

But I just remember thinking about how ironic it is,

because I was at a dinner party with some friends,

and some people came over, friends of friends came over.

One guy came over, and we had a little fire in the yard after dinner.

And so this guy, this is just an act on an example of his attitude.

This guy, you know... - This fucking guy.

- Yeah. I don't know. I just feel like he was in the embodiment of this attitude

that I don't like.

He brought gin to share.

It was a pretty good gin, too.

It had to be more than, like, 30 bucks for the bottle.

I don't know why he's...

I usually don't just pass a bottle of gin around.

- It's like in Tok.

- But whatever. I wouldn't have picked a gin, but whatever.

It was actually not bad.

But that's what I'm saying.

Gin that's passable around as a drink by itself is a pretty decent gin.

Whatever. He had tattoos all over his body.

He had pretty nice shoes.

And he was talking about how he was going to go on a trip.

He was going to take off work and go on a trip for like a month in Europe.

And at the same time, he's complaining about how...

how blatantly effed over people like him are in this country.

I don't remember exactly his example, but basically it was just a comparison game

of "We have it so worse off than the rich."

Right? "We have it so worse off than the rich."

He didn't say, like, some people living in poverty.

He included himself, for sure, in this group of people

who are under, I guess, who are underprivileged

or who are, like, living in poverty and living in this squalor

and these terrible circumstances and things like that and have no future.

And I just kept thinking to myself, like, "Dude, who paid for all those tattoos?

Who paid for that bottle of gin that you're sharing with your friends

and this month of travel that you're taking?"

Like, it isn't that bad. You're not living that badly like you're trying to make out.

What else do you think that the world owes you?

Well, where you fucked up, though, is you didn't say anything.

Right. You fucked that up.

Because maybe you didn't want to get into it right then,

but he doesn't get the message any other way.

Yeah, I wanted to be invited back, hopefully.

Yeah, I get it. I get it. And I also realized that saying something

wouldn't have made much of a difference.

No.

I am of the opinion, though, that it's the little things.

You never know what is going to make a difference.

You never know when somebody's at that junction, or juncture, rather,

that they're going to take a different track.

Sure, maybe this is just me trying to make up for that.

Yeah, I know. So if you're listening, Joe.

Yeah, right, exactly. This is my penance.

Figure your shit out, okay?

Right, exactly.

And, by the way, Joe, the gin was rocking.

The gin was great. Please bring it again.

Yeah, but stop your pissing and moaning, because, you know, nobody's impressed.

I think that's another part of your zhuzh.

Joe, if I could suppose to know you, is that I know people like you

who aren't really feeling the pinch that you claim to have.

You're simply feeling the envy of people that have accomplished more than you.

And I will say it to your face, that you need to buck up.

And by "buck up," I mean take responsibility for being the person that you hate.

Be the Jeff Bezos, if you hate the Jeff Bezos.

If you think you have the chutzpah in the kahunas to do what Jeff Bezos has done, do it, pussy.

Otherwise, stop trying to make yourself feel better by making other people feel bad.

Well, you know what Joe would say? I've spoken to a lot of Joes.

Tell me, Joe, what would you say?

He would say, "Well, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are crooks. That's how they got so rich."

And you're not a crook, so you can't get ahead without stealing.

Yeah.

Nice.

Have you seen that they basically don't pay any taxes? Have you seen that?

Of course they don't pay taxes. They've got people. We don't have people.

Right. Sure. Yeah. I don't know.

You know what? That is okay, because you know what?

And I think this is a fantastic segue into something I care a lot about.

Let's do it.

Having money is meaningless.

The only way that money means anything is when you spend it.

The irony of spending money is that you don't have it anymore.

You give it to someone else. That's the essence of circular flow.

You have to surrender your cake and let someone else eat it, right?

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

That's the whole essence of having money.

So complaining that people have money is meaningless.

If Jeff Bezos is spending $10 million on his wedding, guess what?

He ain't got that $10 million no more, and other people have it, right?

So he gave $10 million. You can consider it a donation to charity if you wish.

And I'm not defending unscrupulous behavior.

I am simply saying it is not a problem to be rewarded for the benefits that you provide to society.

The only reason that Jeff Bezos is rich is that his brainchild provided people with the best delivery system of quality goods imaginable.

So if you're going to fault a guy for that, you're really suggesting that people need to pay more for worse things and wait longer to receive them.

Somehow, I can't see that as being a beneficial society, and I also can't see that as being something we should encourage.

We should not encourage lower performance at a higher price.

- Mic drop. - Mic drop for sure, yeah.

No, I definitely agree with you on that.

I'm just thinking, as you were speaking of all the benefits in the last week I've gotten because of Jeff Bezos, right?

I've told you before, I got some of my tools to own recently.

I was looking around for tools like replacement drills and things like that to get going again, right?

If it wasn't for Amazon, man, it would be a lot harder.

I mean, there's drills available outside of Amazon, right, but they had the right drill and they had it with even a payment plan.

I can stretch the cost out over the next couple months and whatever, and it would be ready and I could get in a couple days.

These things, I don't know, these are the examples I feel like I'm kind of rambling on for no reason.

But just to emphasize the point, yeah, he's contributed a lot to all of our lives all the time.

And for sure, he deserves that money.

And again, having that money doesn't mean anything.

He has to spend it for it to mean anything to him.

And when he spends it, it means something to the person who receives it.

It's not like he's hoarding it and getting shit for free, right?

Because he just keeps getting free stuff and he keeps getting more money, but he keeps getting free stuff.

No, he has to pay $100 million for his yacht.

That's $100 million he doesn't have anymore. $100 million into the economy.

$100 million into the economy.

And, you know, I'm going to say probably 500 families are grateful to be paid for building the yacht that he and Lauren Sanchez tour the world in.

You know, God, what's wrong with that?

Senator, do you think that some of this, when people get so upset at the thought that there's these billionaires out there with all this money while there's all these poor people,

do you think that, is it this idea that somebody having this money means that's money somebody else would have had?

Yes. That's what they think.

Right.

They think, oh my God, you just stole it from that poor person.

Because this is money, like money is a pie, and you just cut it up and if you've got like a huge chunk of the pie, that means everybody else missed out on the rest of the pie, right?

But what you're not taking, you're not really, that's not what it is. It's not a pie.

It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a weather system where it rains, it accumulates, it evaporates, it rains, it accumulates, it evaporates.

And it just keeps going in this cycle constantly.

And the way that Jeff Bezos got his money is from these poor people giving it to him, right?

These poor people thought they got a better deal on Amazon than if they went to Ace Hardware, or if they went to Barnes and Noble, or if they went to any of a million other places that Amazon now competes with.

Yeah.

I think what was, there was a book I was reading, but I remember the, I can't remember which of his books it was. I read a few of them.

Which helped me with this economic, like, concept.

Steven Pinker. Great. Anybody out there? Steven Pinker is a genius. He's great.

Yes he is.

Oh, you're familiar with him too? Oh yeah, okay. Yeah, he totally is. Scott knows all about him.

He explained to my tiny little mind about economics just a little bit, enough for me to understand that money is not this limited thing, that it has to be divided equally among people. It's something that's generated through value.

And it can be created, like value is created, and then everybody benefits from that value, right? And so it's a good thing in my mind when rich people are ridiculously rich.

I mean, if they didn't gain it, like, you know, there's corrupt dictators and things like that who got their money from stealing it from others and subjugating other people, of course not.

But there's other very, very rich people who gain it, you know, by providing value. That's a good thing.

And yes, maybe they "steal it" by not paying taxes, but honestly, the socialist imperative is to tax the shit out of people, okay? They want people to pay taxes through the nose.

And "steal it," I guess, taking it is stealing it by taxes.

And I feel like that's kind of...maybe...well, I don't see...I want to edit this part because I feel like an idiot. I lost my train of thought.

That makes you more relatable, so you saw yourself up there deep usually.

I was. And now I'm down with the rest of us.

Yeah, but I think not paying taxes is just playing by the rules. You know, he's playing by the rules. If the rules were different, he would play by those rules.

Yeah. Yeah. And I also feel like I'm starting to lose it a little bit because I had a...

Well, because we've been partying all day, right? It's impossible to drink all day if you don't start in the morning.

Right. Oh yeah, I think I was going to try to tie it back to, as you were talking about, providing value, right?

Something...because I was kind of poopooing the idea at the beginning of happiness and the sense of indulgence being a good life. And I think one of the ways of doing something that is more meaningful, a bigger thing to pursue, a higher pursuit, is providing value for others.

That's one of the things that motivates me in the work that I do, is because I can see day-to-day that I'm contributing something to other people, providing value. I can see that in Jeff Bezos, and Ivan Musk, and the others that are getting filthy rich off of these things, these ideas that they're...

Yep. And the truth, you don't have to like their politics. No. Right? You simply need to respect the process. You, being the person, the aspirational person who wants to be both happy and cared for.

I think that money, while it's not a recipe for happiness, it's certainly a prerequisite for you. If you aren't able to pay your basic needs, the odds of living a good life and being happy are low.

No. True. There are several thousands of non-precurrency societies that don't require money in a job. Right?

Money in a job was invented 200 years ago with the Industrial Revolution. Before that, it was far less assured.

Yes. Thank you to the labor unions for providing stability in our system and giving us the five-day work week. However, now, it's a far different world where we're absolutely dependent on providing value to our employer and that employer saying thank you by giving us the paycheck.

Period. And stop complaining about it. Right? Because that's the whole reason that they're paying you, little millennial who thinks that they deserve stuff for being alive.

Are we millennials still the issue? I don't know. I was hoping that I'd gotten to the point where I could be one of the old, cantankerous people complaining about it.

No. Nobody's a millennial. I'm a millennial too.

Okay. Yeah. Well, the guy that I was complaining about earlier is a millennial. Yeah. We millennials still are. Yeah. So if you just quit your bitching and recognize that you are a happy cog in the wheel, you are making the world go round one contribution at a time.

Yeah. That is compensated and acknowledged through the paycheck you receive. And hopefully you receive one because, you know, Ben, in your situation, you know, gradually you get some of the money up front, but some of the time you take in the shorts, right?

Definitely. It's happened a lot. Yes. Right. You don't always make money. No, I've lost a lot. Yeah. But go ahead.

And I've been in a consulting situation where I do the work ahead of time. I give them a bill and I, and they give me a ghost. They ghost me. Wow. I don't get paid. Yeah. And what do I do?

That's happened to me a couple times too. Yeah. Fortunately, not too much. Yeah.

And so it is something to be grateful for to have a reliable employer. But I will say that was a choice of mine. No, I chose that because there's another value in the system that I've decided to be a part of the contracting system.

There's a risk. I've definitely paid a lot of money just to finish a project rather than get paid for it. And then I've worse off at the end than I was if I just never went to work in the first place.

I've done that. But there's other value. There's value in the sense of freedom and independence in choosing my own schedule, my own means and my own methods.

And all of those kinds of things is all intangible. But it's all value. Sure. That's why I made the decisions that I made.

I think we have to acknowledge choice is a massive factor and that we have so many choices and we pick the best one. And in truth, I technically had a choice, but my choice was different from yours.

I didn't want to be a contractor, but I didn't have another better choice. And I really think that's the essence of it all is to grade your choices, pick the right one or the best one rather.

And if you don't see it out there that is in evidence, you have to be a very innovative person and create one. But you always pick the most advantageous route to take and take it.

I took the contracting position because I was desperate. I had nothing else. And I could advertise and I could maybe hook somebody that was willing to pay me $50 an hour and have a low risk.

Those were times when that I would have chosen an employer in a minute, but I didn't have that option. And yes, while I was doing the contracting, I was actively trying to find a solid nine to five.

But in truth, I'm never going to say that I didn't have a choice. I simply had to choose an option that was perhaps not the one that I would have chosen from the Sears catalog.

You know, if I'd have picked it out of the catalog, it would have looked a lot different. Sure. That's where sometime, you know, maybe we can prepare for it a little more, whatever.

But sometime I'd like to have a conversation on one of these podcasts about the free market. We talked about that tonight to a degree.

But yeah, because I think the thing that appeals to me so much about that is the choice aspect. Yes. Right. Because to my understanding, that's what it's all about. Yeah.

All right. Is that there are options. There are choices out there available for you. Yeah. And trust is a very benefit. Right. Because I think having 500 choices all look the same. Not very interesting. That's what I see socialism as being.

Right. Free market. I feel like it kind of solves a lot of those issues because choices are viable are going to present themselves. Right. And if you want something that's better, you somehow either need to sell yourself.

You know, as providing that value, or in fact, make it up yourself. But you can't complain in today's market that it's all against you. It's all tipped against you.

Sorry to say you could play a play a part in your own happiness and your own good life. And with that, I think perhaps we need to thank you for your marginal attention.

Because I'm confident you didn't hear everything we said, nor should you have because, honestly, it was not worth hearing. But your support and your interest has means a lot to us and with that, we wish you a sweet idea.

Thank you so much. Thank you.